Curse

Lord Iowerth · Mar 04, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatteNo1

Personally i like Melandru's Resiliense better for Energy management. With draw conditions. At least in pvp i found it very useful as you would allways be hit with hexes or conditions. i could get a full +10 energy and health regeneration for 16 seconds with 10 in wilderness survival. + its a stance so no one would interrupt or take it away. This time it got a buff too.

You know ... Ranger has been my favorite class for quite some time, and i'm just getting into Monking now ... I can't believe this had never occurred to me before o.O

It is, still, rather conditional ... especially when facing a non-conditioning, non hexing team (damage dealers alone: Rangers, Elementalists, Warriors) although you will probably end up with a few conditions from them.

I'm going to try it tonight, in RA, and run straight at the mesmers and necros and /dance ...

... well, ok, i'm not that arrogant? I tried another word here, and got RED ENGINE'd. Oh well, thanks for the great suggestion!

Rajamic · Mar 04, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

I've explained it with figures, even if you dont take into consideration the risk using OoB.

If you explain how P&H is worse we'd be getting somewhere.

Even if you figure in a Healing Touch after every OoB (which in most cases will make up for the 20% loss and then a little bit more), you still are gaining exactly the same amount of energy as PnH. But PnH is an enchantment (thus vulnerable to stripping or even worse: shattering), and with a 30 second recharge, you can't keep it up all the time if they do remove it. Even Drain Enchant and Inspired Hex give you back a better energy return, and they have another positive effect with only a negligable condition and they aren't elite.

PnH only works if you can run it on multiple allies consistently. With its 30 sec recharge, that's quite difficult, plus the condition of it ending prematurely severely limits what characters you can use it on (from what I can think of, only heal monk, prot monks, and battery necros).

With a bit lower recharge (I think 20 seconds would be nice) you could run it constantly on 2 chars despite moderate enchant removal, or 3 if you are lucky.

Divinus Stella · Mar 04, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Not a big PnH fan, but if i remember correctly, with a decent sum in DF and a 20% mod you could keep PnH up on 2 people at once provided no removals.

Keyote · Mar 04, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

Even if you figure in a Healing Touch after every OoB (which in most cases will make up for the 20% loss and then a little bit more), you still are gaining exactly the same amount of energy as PnH. But PnH is an enchantment (thus vulnerable to stripping or even worse: shattering), and with a 30 second recharge, you can't keep it up all the time if they do remove it. Even Drain Enchant and Inspired Hex give you back a better energy return, and they have another positive effect with only a negligable condition and they aren't elite.

Actually for a boon monk you'll only gain 4 energy after the heal, for other monks it's 6. With P&H you'll get 5 in that time. Now factor in less self healing from mend ailement (so you're usually covered in conditions), you'd risk dropping your health by 20% with OoB under that kind of pressure for 4 - 6 energy? It's suicidal.

P&H isn't the answer to our problems, but personally I'd feel a lot safer running that than risking suicide with OoB. I've been trying P&H, channeling and divine spirit, and it does work to an extent.

To be honest though, monking in 4v4 is a complete joke right now. Without OoB people are stripping your enchantments all the time, our best self heal reduced by more than 50% with very little way of removing conditions, hammer warriors with blackout...it's impossible to do your job and no fun at all. It's just a gankfest on monks.

LifeInfusion · Mar 04, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

More innovative builds will result. That is my take.

Denny Pace · Mar 04, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

More innovative builds will result. That is my take.

I agree, and add, "Change, or die." The 3-2 update is one of the two most interesting skill balances in the history of our game, and has some wide-ranging effects beyond OoB. Right away, I'm seeing all sorts of people playing Mesmers (primary and secondary) using Ineptitide, more Sword warriors, monks struggling more, everyone unpacking the always-useful, but not used enough Shadow of Fear, more Shock instead of Gale....

These changes have fundamentally changed the entire dynamic of the game. I really welcome them, if only as a personal challenge to modify my char/team builds as quickly and effectively as possible. As for OoB, I didn't use it that much, even when running my primary N/Mo, but it's just one of so many changes that 'domino change' the builds we all face in GvG/HoH, I don't pay that much devoted attention to it.

Inureface · Mar 04, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Melandru's Resilance ^_^, I've always gone mo/r or mo/me with mesmer interupts or ranger stances. OoB to me was the IWAY of monking.

Wexnar · Mar 04, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

It's a total suicide if you use OoB at low hp.

Kakumei · Mar 04, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wexnar

It's a total suicide if you use OoB at low hp.

I, uh, don't know exactly what to think of this.

snikerz · Mar 04, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

I, uh, don't know exactly what to think of this.

an example would be the player is @ 100/500, using oob would kill the player

Rajamic · Mar 04, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

I, uh, don't know exactly what to think of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

an example would be the player is @ 100/500, using oob would kill the player

I think they meant something along the lines of: "Well, DUH!"

And Keyote, I'd still take OoB over PnH, just because I have control over when I get the energy, not an enemy mesmer.

Kakumei · Mar 04, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

I think they meant something along the lines of: "Well, DUH!"

Three pages of discussion, and then he comes in and says pretty much the most obvious statement anyone has ever said ever.

Yeah.

Keyote · Mar 04, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

And Keyote, I'd still take OoB over PnH, just because I have control over when I get the energy, not an enemy mesmer.

It's going to take some time before we know whats best to use and many people agree with you.

I've been testing P&H with channeling in 4v4 and it's working out ok. The energy isn't as good as it used to be and it does get stripped, but not that often. I found it hard work using OoB because I need to heal almost every time I use it. I dont see MoR as an option for a boon monk so at the moment it's the best I've got.

Y.T. · Mar 04, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Considering the forced self heal after OoB, P&H will give the same energy over 15 secs and you dont risk killing yourself in the process.

that enchant on u and it'll be shatterd as soon as 1st opposing mesmer sees u... 130hpp damage, no e-regen, plus u have to waut 4 it to recharge so u can cast it on u and hope for the best...

P&H is pve-only skill and not for all pve areas... nobody in the right mind will bring it in UW/tombs UW/FOW f/ex...

Keyote · Mar 04, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y.T.

that enchant on u and it'll be shatterd as soon as 1st opposing mesmer sees u... 130hpp damage, no e-regen, plus u have to waut 4 it to recharge so u can cast it on u and hope for the best...

P&H is pve-only skill and not for all pve areas... nobody in the right mind will bring it in UW/tombs UW/FOW f/ex...

Here's what I dont understand. People keep saying P&H sucks because of the small energy gain and enchant removal, but monks being ganked in PvP are willing to take a ~100 health sac for barely any gain?

Boon is an enchantment too, since when did damage from getting that removed stop people using boon?

Kakumei · Mar 04, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Here's what I dont understand. People keep saying P&H sucks because of the small energy gain and enchant removal, but monks being ganked in PvP are willing to take a ~100 health sac for barely any gain?

Boon is an enchantment too, since when did damage from getting that removed stop people using boon?

Boon has a near-nil recharge, in comparison to P&H's 30 seconds.

Also, OoB is preferable primarily because of its ability to get you energy now. That's why it's used.

Keyote · Mar 04, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

If you want more than 4 - 6 energy from OoB, you need to let your health regen naturally or you spend it back on the self heal. If you manage to do that in PvP, I'd love to know how.

The recharge is a problem if P&H gets removed, and believe it or not it doesn't that often, but I'm using with channeling and divine spirit so it's not a complete loss if if I have to wait. I was also talking about damage from shatter enchantment, which still applies to boon.

Yanman.be · Mar 04, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

I started to use mor + contemplation..works nice..:cop = oob now

not for boon prot though....

it's also nice to get your energy back after a death...
mantra + immediate cop afert his..insta 30+ energy

Y.T. · Mar 05, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Here's what I dont understand. People keep saying P&H sucks because of the small energy gain and enchant removal, but monks being ganked in PvP are willing to take a ~100 health sac for barely any gain?

Boon is an enchantment too, since when did damage from getting that removed stop people using boon?

cos i can recast it immediately (5sec recharge) and heal myself in process...
but 2 enchants shattered at the same time means trouble for the monk...

edit: actually if u heal urself using sig of devotion (with maxed DF its almost 100hp) u'll get more than 6-7enrgy - i'm trying to save my favorite boon prot build - i dont use heal touch at all... i have 0 points in healing...

i'm going to try melandru's resilence for pve - not sure about pvp yet cos i remember there is a warrior skill that can remove stances on u - berserks in fow are using it wish i remember the name... also i think fingers of chaos monster skill can remove stances on u but i'm not sure about mo/r have to check it - it works diff way on diff professions... but it pvp i guess all tanks're equipping this skill alrdy

zoozoc · Mar 05, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Energy drain ftw